Religious Debate (Serious discussion only)

[Pigeon Poop]

Actually, Dom, you might be suprised at how really accurate Diablo 2 is according to folklore. Baal, Diablo, and Andariel, (one of the Seraphim) all come from the Bible. Diablo is just latin for Devil. Mephisto, or Mephistopheles, as he is regarded, is from Georg Fuast, in which he is said to have summoned Mephistophles, (Devil). A lot of the standard creatures are from Greek Mythology.

It is quite interesting at how much thought Blizzard really put into this game.

[Sedhrw]

"His name in Hebrew is Abaddon, in Greek, Apollyon, and in English, The Destroyer."
-Revelation 9:11

I believe that is a false quote you have there, there is no "English", in any shape or form of the Christian Bible.

There are also literally 100 variations of this full quote due to several different Bibles, one of the most common:

"They have over them as king, the angel of the abyss: his name in Hebrew is Abaddon, and in the Greek tongue he hath the name Apollyon."

Sorry,

/scholar mode off.

[TheDOMINATOR]

I believe that is a false quote you have there...

It's from a shortened, paraphrased Bible, so you might be correct there, sir. But it is very similar to that, I believe. I don't have the little Bible that I own on hand at the moment. But still, it's a nice quote.

[Pigeon Poop]

Abbadon really means Destruction. I'm pretty sure it isn't in Revelation, I think it's in Proverbs and I know it's in Job.

[Sedhrw]

Abbadon really means Destruction. I'm pretty sure it isn't in Revelation, I think it's in Proverbs and I know it's in Job.


Abaddon appears in the New Testament, Book of Revelation 9:7–11, therefore this quote must be from Revelation, correct? Although, I'd have to agree with you, this is most likely from Job. Even though 90% of his writings are found in Judaism, he was also credited for anticipating a messiah in Christianity, and wrote mainly on the coming of Satan as a counterpart of this messiah, aka Jesus. So yes, this is from Jobab, and yes, this is Revelation.

edit - Ah, excuse me, we are thinking of the same thing, but in different context, the Abaddon you speak one is from Job's separate writings, but speaks of a place, the Abbadon I speak of is actually when it is personified and an Angel of the Abyss, which is in Revelation.

Ok, enough of this Bible talk! Biblical history is so involved...

[TheDOMINATOR]

Apollyon appears in the New Testament, Book of Revelation 9:7–11, therefore this quote must be from Revelation, correct? Although, I'd have to agree with you, this is most likely from Job. Even though 90% of his writings are found in Judaism, he was also credited for anticipating a messiah in Christianity, and wrote mainly on the coming of Satan as a counterpart of this messiah, aka Jesus. So yes, this is from Jobab, and yes, this is Revelation.

In Revelation, Abaddon is referred to as the King of the Locusts and the Prince of the Bottomless Pit that only Christ holds the key to open. These locusts of which Abaddon is master of, are one of the end-world plagues. This I read in Revelation, and wikipedia also has information about it, also proving my statements:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abaddon

See the paragraph(s) referring to Revelation 9:11.

[Sedhrw]

See my edit DOM ^

In Revelation, Abbadon is personified, in Job's Biblical writings Abbadon is a place, a place of lost souls.

[Pigeon Poop]

I stand corrected. It is indeed in Revelation. Also, Proverbs 15:11 and Job 26:6.

What better way to Jack this thread than with a biblical discussion.

Kudos, Gentlemen.

[Sedhrw]

In Revelation, Abaddon is referred to as the King of the Locusts and the Prince of the Bottomless Pit that only Christ holds the key to open.

See this makes since, it speaks of Christ which was anticipated by Job, therefore reinforcing the fact that once again,

in Revelation: Abbadon = a being

in Job's previous scriptures: Abbadon = a state, or place, until he anticipated Christ.

I stand corrected. It is indeed in Revelation. Also, Proverbs 15:11 and Job 26:6.

What better way to Jack this thread than with a biblical discussion.

Kudos, Gentlemen.


Indeed, documented religion is an easy discussion. Now..... get into Sunnis and Shiites and thats a different story.

[Pigeon Poop]

Thanks, Sophist. Good idea.

[TheDOMINATOR]

So, referring to this quote from Wikipedia:

Identification of Abaddon

Many Biblical scholars believe Abaddon to be Satan or the antichrist[2][3][4][5]Others have stated that he may be one of the lesser demons of hell, or even a dark angel.[6]One source, The Greater Key of Solomon by Samuel Liddell MacGregor Mathers, stated that Abaddon was powerful enough to be used by Moses as a way of invoking the terrible rains of the Plagues of Egypt.[6]. in many places, Abaddon is pictured as a human sized locust, and is known as the lord of pestilence. Jehovah's Witnesses originally also considered Abaddon a demon, but now identify him with Jesus.[7]

According to them, there are several proofs in favor of their concepts, including Apocalipsis chapter 20, which reads that "the angel with the key of the abyss and a large prison in his hand seized the dragon (Satan the Devil) and threw him down into the abyss, and closed it on him (Satan)", meaning that the 'angel of the key' had power and authority superior to that of the Devil himself. Therefore, from their standpoint, Abaddon, "the angel with the key of the abyss" (Apoc. chapt. 9) and "the ancient serpent", "the dragon", Satan the Devil, must not be both the same person.

What do you guys think? Does Abaddon = Satan--are they one in the same, or two different entities? I've wondered this ever since I first read Revelation.

[Pigeon Poop]

Ok, from the Ungers Bible Dictionary:

Abaddon, from the Greek: destruction., the Angel of the Bottomless pit, (Rev 9:11). and corresponding to Appollon, Destroyer. The word abaddon means destruction, (Job 31:12), or the place of destruction. i.e: Hades or the region of the dead (Job 26:6), 28:22 and Proverbs 15:11).

I don't really trust Wikipedia as anyone can edit the info. I'll go dig out a bible and see what the passages actually say.

[Sedhrw]

Well you see, in Job's words (eventually) Abbadon means the "Angel of the Abyss, or Pit", which can definitely mean Satan, but some may think Abbadon is the catalyst that gives passage to the arrival of Satan. But I really don't know, it is what you choose to believe. Look at the last sentence in your quote, "the key of the abyss".

Also, that whole thing about Pestilence, if Abbadon is represented as a locust meaning the plagues, how does this relate to Satan since the plagues were brought upon us by God himself.

And not that it makes a difference, and if you are not offended, but so it is easier to know where you are coming from, what is your guys' religious denominations?

edit - Moses calling on Abbadon's power to invoke the plagues upon Egypt...... this is why I don't trust wikipedia for stuff like this..hah

[Pigeon Poop]

Proverbs 15:11-

"Sheol, and Abaddon are before the Lord". [The KJV interprets this as Hell and Destruction. Note Destruction is capitalized.]

Job 26:6-

Sheol is naked before Him and Abaddon has no covering. [ The context of this passage is Job talking to his friend regarding Gods majesty.]

By this passage, it kinda sets up both. By stating that Hades is naked, that would imply Hades is a person rather than a place. The no covering can be taken either way, no covering; clothes or no covering; roof or otherwise.

Interesting sidenote. The word Hades appears nowhere in the English Bible. Note I said English.

[eNtitY-]

well since i dont know what u talking about until i acutally read it

i hear that Jesus was a Jewish?
that tru? i hear alot say it is, and alot say thats a lie

[Sophist]

I am no bible scholar, but I know there is heavy controversey over the translation of biblical script into English, and even on which versions of the texts are considered oldest and most reliable. This seems right along the lines of much of that. What I know of it focused on Matthew / Mark / Luke I believe. I wish I could remember more of it, I will look into it and possibly post it as it seems to tie in with this discussion.

[Pigeon Poop]

Yes, Jesus was Jewish. Christianity didn't show up until well after he died.

Sophist:

The conttroversy wasn't/isn't so much as the interpreted language, but more of what the original Cannon contained. There were many books left out because the didn't fit the 'Holy Mantra' of what the powers that be thought should go into it. Many, many good books and epistles were ignored for this reason.

The movie The DaVinci Code kinda touches on it. Not entirely accurate but enough to qualify as "truth". Keep in mind, poetic license was used in making that movie.

[Sophist]

Right I know, but the language is at the root of most of the academic debate over the subject. Many of the more-often quoted passages of the bible change drastically in meaning when alternative translations are considered. The problem is that for so long, the english bible has been held on high as the word of god, and the religious community isn't willing to accept that maybe the students of the monks who did the bible copying weren't masters of language and translation :)
I only mention that as part of this debate considered the translation of words and how words such as "hades" never appear in the english translations of the bible. Many of the words in the english bible, by some religious scholars, shouldn't appear in the english translations of the bible (hence controversey) :P

I have not seen the DaVinci Code, or read any of Dan Brown's work, so I can't comment on it.

[Pigeon Poop]

You'll have to bear with me, I used to debate Theology when I was much younger, I had to go dust off my Dictionary and Concordance when this topic came up. It's been a few years.

I agree with your statement regarding the English language. there are way too many inconsistencies with the translation.

The Hades remark came as I was reading in Ungers about Aboddon. I was suprised, I thought that's where the word originated. In the original Greek MS, it is written as Apoylon. In Hebrew it's Aboddon but in the English version it's Destruction. Whereas Aboddon is clearly a place, yet in the KJV it is capitalized.

Also, the word used in the Hebrew version is Sheol, which means Hades in Hebrew, but the KJV uses Hell.

I never have been a fan ot the King James Bible, to me it's like the Readers Digest condensed version. Yes, when the scribes came acrosse language they felt their minions couldn't understand, they changed it to suit their needs. Remember, when the Bible was translated from the Greek and Hebrew from which it was originally written, the church ruled the world.

If you get the chance to see that movie, I highly recommend it. It is a good movie on many levels. Just keep in mind that it isn't entirely true. Technically, it's fiction, but it is based, albiet loosley, on facts.

[Sophist]

That's the thing - the church ruled the world then, and the church is still master of it's own domain, regardless of what scholars say. The greek versions of the texts read very differently, with faaaaaar different meanings. It was interesting as during this talk, there was a theologist from ... some bible college [biased I know] but he was also educated in greek. The way the greek language works... I forget exactly why but there are a number of mistakes made in the translation, consistently, because translators just didn't understand one aspect of the grammar. I wish I knew the fellow's name, or could recall it better.

Anyway, this was all more of an aside about translation and the bible than actually jumping into the discussion. I may eventually see that movie. Some day.

[Pigeon Poop]

That is what I liked about the movie. It really spelled out how the church uses this information against it's own people. Sad, really. But since it's a movie, it reaches more people who would otherwise be disinclined to learn anything about religion.

I'm no theologian by any stretch. I have always read religion as history. I find it fascinating. Just tonight after pulling out these old tomes, I find myself reading up on them all over again. I even found my old Necronomicon. Forgot I had that. I need to read that one again.

[HiTS]

The conttroversy wasn't/isn't so much as the interpreted language, but more of what the original Cannon contained. There were many books left out because the didn't fit the 'Holy Mantra' of what the powers that be thought should go into it. Many, many good books and epistles were ignored for this reason.

The Gnostic gospels, like the controversial Gospel of Judas.