WW attack speed question.

[N V]

Long been thinking about making a mld ww barb and so I checked some attack speeds with different weapon today. First off, I was under the impression that WW's attack speed was only depending on the weapon base speed and IAS on the weapon. If duel wielding the IAS from 1 weapon would not affect the other.

Enough about that, i was checking the speed of Small Cresent with 50 ias on (oath), and when duel wielding those i get a 2 frame attack speed!? O_O
Thats 12,5 attacks per second, which i thought was impossible on ANY char. so what is the max WW speed i can get when using Oath runeword, and what base weapon speed do i need to hit the last breakpoint?

Edit: If it makes a difference i was using this (http://diablo2.ingame.de/tips/calcs/weaponspeed.php?lang=english) speed calculator.

[safetypro]

Hi N_V,
I'm not an expert in Barbs however, my understanding is that WW can only achieve a max 4 frame attack. WW only considers on weapon IAS. When Duel Weilding, it is my understanding that the lead weapon, the one armed first, is the one that is considered for calculating the WIAS.

Here's the general rules for calculating WIAS for WW:
1 handed weapons all hit the last break point for whirlwind at -34.

2 handed swords being used as a 2 handed weapon hit the last breakpoint at -51. But when used as a 1 handed they hit at the same as a 1 handed weapon.

All 2 handed weapons other then swords hit at -59.

To find out what your weapon hits at is simple.
take the base speed (look it up here) then subtract that number with how much increased attack speed you have on the weapon it self. Then that number is what your weapons speed really is.

So basicly veryslow, slow, fast, and very fast don't mean any thing at all. I am putting this table in to help out the people that really understand math Thanks to MCM.

a1_frames is looked up from the following table for barbs:
1hs = 16 (1 hand weapons)
2hs = 18 (2 hand swords used in 2 hands)
2ht = 19 (2 hand spears)
hth = 12 (fists)
stf = 19 (staves, polearms, 2 handed axes/hammers)

Then take the result and match it to this table to find your "real" delay, in frames. Match the first left hand value that is equal to or less than your result:

0 = 4
12 = 6
15 = 8
18 = 10
20 = 12
23 = 14
26 = 16
So for example a zerker (WSM 0) with 34% IAS (WIAS 34) has a delay of: 16 * 256 / ((34 + 0 + 100) * 256/100) = 11 (11.94, the fraction is truncated due to integer precision.) In the table above, 11 is >= 0, and not >= 12, so the real delay is 4 frames. This means for example that Grief only needs 34% IAS in a zerker to achieve 4 frame WW.

[N V]

Thanks for the quick and informative answer safetypro. That will help a lot when figuring out what weapons to use for maximised damage and still hitting the 4 frame attack.

A little OT, how is that twinking/item guide going? Looking forward to read it :)

[safetypro]

Twinking guide is on hold for the moment N_V, thanks for asking. I've got so much happening in RL so I'll work on the guide when time permits.

[N V]

Let's hope you get time to finish it soon then, as it will be of great help to many players i belive ;)

But back on topic, searched a little for different weapons to make oath in, and it seems highland blade will yield the most avg dmg. I also happen to have an eth one someplace on my mules, so i would only need to find 1 more =)

[Omnicide]

Yeah...the reason that calculator lists 12.5 attacks per second is because it counts both hits. Really it's about an attack every 4 frames if you hit to top breakpoint.

Ack...safety beat me to it...and for some reason that explanation confused me even though it's explaining what I know. D:

[N V]

Hehe. Thanks. It was a bit confusing, but i managed to sort it out after some time :)

btw what's your thoughts on using highland blade? I think thats the best choice at lvl 49. Just have to make sure i got 2 of em against casters and smiters.

[Omnicide]

Why level 49? MLD? O_o

One handed, a Small Crescent beats Highland blade and keeps the same speed.

Average damage for the Highland blade is 42...Crescent's is 49 average.

[N V]

yea, but I sorta like the range 3 of Highland compared to range 2 with Crescent, though Crescent has lower reqs. Guess it comes down to range 2 and low reqs (more life) or range 3 and less life. I have never played a barb before so dont know if that 1 range matters much. I'm thinking it gelps vs smiters at least, and will give me an edge over other Small Crescent barbs with range. What would the expert choose? :D

[Barloc]

Dunno why, but I always wanted to build a mld with oath cresents, but i'm always on nl.
highland is a nice idea, didn't think of that one, but since i ended up leveling the mld anyway, I'm glad I stuck with axes.

As far as attack speed goes, do we all agree that duel weilding 2 weapons (at max wias needed) yeilds 6.25 + 6.25 = 12.5 attacks per second? I may have missed something in translation above (eye-to-brain translation) but I believe this to be true.

[safetypro]

I forgot how powerful a WW is. I just levelled mine to 75 and need one level to equip Drac's. I went the single weapon with max block route using eBOTDz and SS. I used an eth Oath SmlCrescent for leveling. Too bad you guys were on different servers or mine would be available for trade.

[dainbramage]

Highland >>>>>> Small crescent for whirl at 49. The extra range is invaluable, far moreso than the damage.

[N V]

Thanks alot for the great input guys.

Just wondering if Barloc said is right. 1 hand ww speed is 6,25 attacks per second and 12,5 for duel wielding, or is it 6,25 when duel wielding and even slower with 1 hand?

[Omnicide]

Yeah, I always seem to neglect the range on weapons for some reason. Highland definitely over the crescent...the damage may be lower, but you'll need the range a lot more.

And yes, Barloc, I agree that dual wielding weapons yields 6.25 attacks per second per weapon or 12.5 attacks per second total.

[N V]

ok, so that settles base weapon type, and I'm going to guess a dusk shroud will be optimal for its def, and it being light armor. I'm still stuck on the shield though. Sanctuary gives huge res, but when duel wielding against casters i will lack in res. How can i make up for that except for charms?

Also speaking of charms, max/ar/life charms with perhaps some fhr to reach breakpoints and frw and res, or would skillers perhaps help me more? Warcry skillers for more life and def, combat skills for higher lvl ww (more dmg and ar), or combat mastery for higher weapon mastery (more life and ar and crit hit), increased speed, higher def and more res. If using skiller i think i might use warcry, but still i feel max/ar/life will be better.

For skills I'm planning something like this:

ww - max
sword mastery - max
shout/iron skin/nat res/inc speed/prereqs - 1
bo - 8

60 points spent which is what I get to play with at 49 with hell rushed char.

Equipment I have decided on so far is:

Helm: Arreats
Armor: Duress Dusk
weapon(s): eth Oath Highland Blade
shield: Sanctuary in Grim Shield (better def, light armor but a little lower block) or Hyperion (lower def, medium armor, slightly better block).
gloves: Bloodfist (?)
boots: Gores
belt: String of Ears
jewelry: Angelic rings/amu and perhaps dwarf/raven against casters.

Not sure what I'm going to socket in Arreats yet, but it depends on charms and what i need after all eq is on. Perhaps an um to help with the res when duel wielding? Don't know, but i will find out i guess :)

So any thoughts on this setup? :)


Looking at my setup (not taking sword/shield into consideration) I will reach 100 FHR and 73 all res, 103 cold res.

In sword/shield combo i will have 120 fhr, 123-143 all res, 153-173 cold res and magic damage reduced by 7 (if that at helps i dont know).
In duel wielding weapon combo i will have 100 fhr, 73 all res, 103 cold and magic damage reduced by 20-30.

Looking at the res I think I'm going to have big problems with good FoH palas and cold sorces, and perhaps an occasional psn nec. I don't know how much -psn res a druid can get (rabies druid), but its a mele char so I will be using a shield which means at worst I will have 123 all res.

[Omnicide]

I'd use Ums wherever I can to get the res up then, if that's your weakness. You really want to have dual weapons for casters...but if you need the res then you should use the shield...as it's better to survive than to get an extra hit.

Tried to look for weapons with high res so maybe you could have the best of both...and I failed. ._.;

[N V]

I think there are some weapons with res, but those would be 2 handed, so not much point in using it. Guess only other option is Um what i can and use some res charms. The MDR on Oath probably helps a bit if I have max res :D

I'm going to look at some other armor possibilities than Duress in hope of some more res from the armor. Doubt i will find anything competetive though.

[Omnicide]

Lol...Lionheart has 30 res all.

Lionheart
3 Socket Body Armor
Hel + Lum + Fal
+20% Enhanced Damage
Requirements -15%
+25 To Strength
+10 To Energy
+20 To Vitality
+15 To Dexterity
+50 To Life
All Resistances +30

Gloom
3 Socket Body Armor
Fal + Um + Pul
15% Chance To Cast Level 3 Dim Vision When Struck
+10% Faster Hit Recovery
+200-260% Enhanced Defense (varies)
+10 To Strength
All Resistances +45
Half Freeze Duration
5% Damage Taken Goes To Mana
-3 To Light Radius

Or Treachery for Fade?

[safetypro]

If you are going with a Highland Blade for the range, you'll need 171 strength so why go with a low defense DS when you can equip a Boneweave, AP or Kraken Shell? They all look so much more sexy on a Barb than a dusk.

[Omnicide]

Levvel requirement. Nothing above 49.

[safetypro]

Oh sorry, guess I missed that part.

[N V]

Yea it's only for 49. I did check for some other armors though Dusk was the best option.

As for Gloom, its so close to perfect.... but I will lack OW. I don't know where i can make up for the lack of OW from Duress. its 33% which helps a lot. I think res charms might be the best option.

Or I could go 1 point in BO and place all leftovers in Nat Res. But doesn't it have sever diminishing returns after just a few points spent?

Just made Oath in the eth Highland Blade i have. Rolled a perfect ED! 340% ED was nice, though the magic damage absorb was 10. could have been 15, but the dmg is way better :D:D

Now i just need a few more items and then i can start the barb :D

[Barloc]

i don't think high nat/res is a great option, diminished returns as you say. Also, did you consider bulking life by going with max BO + Mastery w/ lower ww? Just seems like vita is a safe bet, and you have quite a bit more mana for ww's. BO/life bonus sets the barb class apart from other builds imo. Mastery does too, since you get a nice AR+Damage bonus added to any skill, even if those skills are only 1pt wonder melee attacks.

Amulets with teleport charges (lvl48) could be cool on occasion-no?.

[N V]

i don't think high nat/res is a great option, diminished returns as you say. Also, did you consider bulking life by going with max BO + Mastery w/ lower ww? Just seems like vita is a safe bet, and you have quite a bit more mana for ww's. BO/life bonus sets the barb class apart from other builds imo. Mastery does too, since you get a nice AR+Damage bonus added to any skill, even if those skills are only 1pt wonder melee attacks.

Amulets with teleport charges (lvl48) could be cool on occasion-no?.

I did consider going max BO instead, but I dont know how damage would look like. Would it still reach around 3kish with ww?
At lvl 49 and the reqs for highland blade I don't get all that much points in vita, but barbs do get a good amount of life per points :)

And tele charge amu seems like a very good idea. Actually thought about that, but then i wouldn't be able to have angelics combo. Perhaps 2x raven instead when going for tele amu since that will be used against casters exclusively. How is repair cost for something like that? :rolleyes:

[Barloc]

I did consider going max BO instead, but I dont know how damage would look like. Would it still reach around 3kish with ww?:

not sure, i'm not to good with damage calc but I can't imagine it would be terrible. Besides, I'd me more concerned about AR, but it is mld after all

At lvl 49 and the reqs for highland blade I don't get all that much points in vita, but barbs do get a good amount of life per points :)

All the more reason to have a max BO.(imo)

And tele charge amu seems like a very good idea. Actually thought about that, but then i wouldn't be able to have angelics combo. Perhaps 2x raven instead when going for tele amu since that will be used against casters exclusively. How is repair cost for something like that? :rolleyes:

Well i'm sure it's not too cheap lol, I'm thinking occasional use. But then again, use it to collect the gold from all the pubs you'll own with it:p

[N V]

not sure, i'm not to good with damage calc but I can't imagine it would be terrible. Besides, I'd me more concerned about AR, but it is mld after all

Is AR usually a problem with ww barbs? :eek:


All the more reason to have a max BO.(imo)

Hmm. Yea perhaps, but im just so concerned about ww's dmg starting with -ed :o


Well i'm sure it's not too cheap lol, I'm thinking occasional use. But then again, use it to collect the gold from all the pubs you'll own with it:p

I would use it against casters and not to steal gold. I don't steal unless stolen from ;)

[Zarley]

You can find a nice AR calculator here (http://baronsbazaar.invisionzone.com/ppr/ar_calc.html) and a damage calculator here (http://baronsbazaar.invisionzone.com/ppr/damage_calc.html)

I don't think anything beats Duress for MLD barbs, and I would second Barloc's idea of max BO/mastery with less in whirlwind. WW costs a ton of mana when maxed and the returns aren't that great.

[N V]

Thanks for those links Zarley. Now I have an idea about what my damage will look like and how much block i will need with a hyperion shield.

So far based on your guys inputs my serup looks like this:

Skills:

Max: BO and Sword Mastery
1 point: 1 skill point wonders and prereqs.

Equipment:

Arreats
Duress Dusk Shroud
Eth Oath Highland Blade and Sanctuary Hyperion shield/duel Eth Oath.
Angelics ring, Raven Frost
Angelics amu
IK gloves
IK belt
Gores

I'm going to use the IK setup over using bloodfist since the fhr can easily be made up elsewhere, and with Arreats and Duress I allready got 70 fhr.
IK gloves and belt need 110 str to equip, and together they add 45 str, Arreats need 118 so I can equip that after the Ik parts and with the str from Arreats i reach 175 str (161 needed for eth Highland) which saves me 51 stat points (204 life).

I still dont know what to fill my inven with. Warcry/combat/mastery skillers and life/fhr/res sc's or just max/ar/life charms. Perhaps a full inven of 16-20 life sc's (preferebly with second mods)?

[N V]

Sorry for reviving an old thread, but still would be nice with some input on what to fill my inven with. I'm almost done collecting gear now, but havn't started in charms yet.

Anyway some changes in plan. I'm going for grim shield over hyperion since I can get a little bit more defense out of it, and it's a light shield and not medium, but it's got slightly lower block.

Anyway back to the inven part. If I use skillers, would it be warcries of masteries? I'm guessing masteries since warcry only adds defense and life while masteries add dmg, ar, crit hit, faster r/w, more def and more res. Or should I just get all 20 lifers to begin with, with just enough fhr charms to reach 86 fhr, then upgrade the charms as I go?

Will be one of my first barbs, and don't want to screw him up which is what made me dislike barbs to begin with. >_<

[dainbramage]

I'd start out with full SC's, and slowly upgrade to damage prefixes as you build your char.

Mastery GC's are apparently useful in HLD BvB (an area which I must say I have little interest and no experience in), they may well be good against high-defence melee for a level 49 as well. 10 max GC and high ar GC's would probably come in handy as well.

I personally think maxing WW would be superior to the mastery (it's a toss-up between ar and damage, as always), though you should be able to afford a decent investment in whichever one you don't max. The extra ar would come into play for BvB mostly, though a good conc'er is always going to be very tough to crack anyway.

As for a grim shield - you might have a little trouble putting Sanctuary into one of these, given their 2 socket cap :p.

As a warning, beware with your stat tiering that you will likely have to click your corpse several times to re-equip everything. Only really a problem if you're in danger of being NK'd out of a game with a split corpse.

As an upside to screwing up a MLD, 49's happen to be very easy to rebuild :p.

[N V]

Thanks for the input. I could see the usefullness of masteries GC as well, but I would be giving up 800 life for it from charms. Perhaps If I can sometime afford life masteries, then it would be better, but then again I'm loosing out on the damage and ar from charms. Will probably start off with 20 lifers though, since filling his inven with those shouldnt take too long, then if I really like the char, upgrade from there.

As for the ww/sword mastery pros and cons, I looked at that.

With 1 in all prereqs and 1 point wonders (nat res, faster r/w etc) I can max either ww or sword mastery, then 8 points in the other skill. With maxed sword mastery and 8 in ww, I get 133% dmg and 196% ar bonus from mastery with 21% chance of crit hit. From ww we get 38% dmg bonus and 55% ar bonus. ww costs 30 mana. So total we get 172% dmg and 151% ar bonus.

If we switch it around with max ww and 8 in mastery we get 73% dmg and 100% ar bonus with 17% chance at crit from mastery and 134% dmg and 115% ar from ww and it costs 36 mana.

Here we get 207% dmg and 249% ar bonus So more damage and ar for 6 more mana and 6% lower chance to crit. Seems to me that maxing ww is better after all?

And darn about that grim shield! Looks like it's Hyperion after all. I'm glad I kept the 3 socket one I found :o

Didn't think of the stat thing and corpses. Perhaps just use Bloodfist and string for life, fhr and some DR? Or this there some combination of belt/gloves I'm overlooking except for the really good rare ones?

Obviously I want to have a tgods, but if that's not my main belt I can't stat around it.

Lots of questions and more on the way!
Heard about what people call bo'able life. Does it mean there is some kind of +life mods or something that does not get affected by charms?

And just 1 more question for this post. Going to have too duel some barbs, so I'm wondering if an ebugged stone dusk will perform well for this, or just use an ebuged duress. The dmg mod on duress isn't more than 10-20% and stone have higher def. Just looking at the option since I got a 500 def (I think) eth dusk waiting to be buged.

[dainbramage]

A few armours to think of:

1) 'Prudence'. The lowest ed of the lot, but it has self-repair (many people take exception to using eth/non-rep items, plus it's generally better to use non-destructible equipment in pubs). Also refer to the 'Stone' comments.
2) Shaftstop. Not much to say other than 30% DR. Eth ones have reasonable defence.
3) Duress. Good ed, some very nice OW and CB. It helps you hit hard, and has excellent defence whilst doing so.
4) Stone. Lawlz I has moar defence tehn j00. However, I'd tend to leave the Stones to the conc barbs who really shine with it, a whirler will benefit more from offensive mods on armour than from straight defence.
5) Jewelled shroud. 120 ed in a grey shroud will increase your smack potential by a heap when against casters (considering you'll have ~200ed from skills, 150ed from strength, this boosts your damage by ~25%), as well as help you buff up your resistances.


IK gloves and belt are a very viable combo, affording you a heap of extra life over the alternatives with excellent defence (sacrificing the DR of a string, though). IK and bloodfists/string are both strong combos.

TGods is easy to switch in with IK, as it comes with 20 strength (makes 5 str on the belt unusable, keep in mind when building) To alleviate the difference, if you intend to use only the tgods with the above jewelled armour, a strength suffix on a jewel will do nicely in a socketed shroud. Wth string, you can switch in with no loss, however you can't take advantage of the stats on Tgods.


BO/oak/Jah's/whatever else don't boost hp from hp/level (i.e. from fort or BK) and +vit (io rune). Everything else will get multiplied by BO.

[N V]

Interesting suggestion with the Prudence although I think Duress will beat it any day.

Only thing I was thinking of estone mainly against other good barbs, but then again the OW and ed however small it may be will most likely help more than the extra def. Maybe a shaftstop is better for the DR than both stone and duress, but I'm not sure. And a jeweled armor isn't anything I'm going to bet on. Those 40 ed jewels will be too expensive imo.

Been looking at the gloves/belt and I think I will go with IK and tgods solution. Tgods offer 5 less str, but since I will with arreats and the IK belt/glove end up at 175 str with eth highland blade requiring 171 str I will only have to spend 1 more str to be able to use that option, compared to 40 with string/bloodfist.

And about bo'able life, if I understand it right, only hard points in vit and +life from equip/charms will get boosted?

[dainbramage]

Yeah, the point of prudence was the self-rep. Essentially it's tossing up 2.7k def w/ self-repair against 3k defence/33% OW which will degrade. The latter is clearly superior, however where it's not needed an armour which won't eventually break on you is generally better.

BO'able life is hard points in vit, +life, your55 base hp from level 1, and the 2 hp you gain from each level-up.

(PSST. You'll be using 30ed, jewels, however I agree they do tend to be expensive. Plain 30ed's shouldn't cost ya too much)


One last thing I noticed. Am eth dusk with defence in the 500's I wouldn't bother glitching, as even with good rolls it's going to have mediocre defence.

[N V]

You are proably right about that. Will just go with a plain Duress I think instead of a ebuged, and then perhaps upgrade to a sup one later.

30% ed jewels huh? That may be more affordable. Will look into that ;)

Will be looking for a better one if I find out I'm in need of and ebuged one then. But for now I got everything sorted out I think. Thanks a lot for all the good help :)

EDIT: Just 1 last question (I think). Do you think spending points to get frenzy is worth it to catch up with casters? I never liked having lots of frw charms in the inven, but that 110 more frw from 1 point in frenzy sounds good, though I need 2 more points in prereqs meaning either lvl 6 ww or lvl 6 sword mastery. Worth it?

[dainbramage]

I wouldn't bother with frenzy. The frw sounds nice, except you need something to charge it up on, and you'll run out of quill rats eventually (and they'll all die in one hit, making it very difficult to fully charge).

Try to get your paws on an ammy with tele charges however. That'll help a lot with sorcs (note that sorcs are notoriously difficult anyway), everyone else you'll be better off running down. 1 hard point in increased speed will get boosted by a decent slab (esp. when you're not wearing angelics) giving you ~35% EFRW. That and gores alone is worth 100 frw from items, and you'll only need 80% FRW to chase down someone with 200% frw.

You can also try the good old namelocked whirlwind, especially if you run as fast or faster than your opponent. Playing against it as a runner is very difficult as it's impossible to keep track of where you are (note that the namelocked whirlwind induces a crapload of desynch), and when you're faster than your opponent, you will catch up (unless they realise what you're doing and catch you behind a wall or somesuch), and there's a good chance they won't be expecting it. It's also funny (and sad) to see it work on the same person three or four times in a row, and earn a "wtf desynch" for your efforts.

[N V]

Will leave frenzy alone then, though it looks really nice. But that's D2 in a nutshell. Looks good on paper, sucks in game :D

I will have to start gambling again, since I really need a amu with tele charges. I'm guessing that will catch a few sorces off guard. With that 1 point in inc speed, I only need like ~40 more frw to be able to desynch while walking? Have heard that around 130 frw should be enough for that. I wonder how you get ~35% EFRW from inc speed with 1 point in it. I only got 22% since I will only have +2 barb skills and no +all skills =/

so the namelock ww works exactly how? Just a normal namelock with the ww attack? Does left or right mouse button matter?

The more I get questions answered the more questions I get it seems :D